Yes, I'm Crazy

I’ve commented over at Evangel this morning. In case you don’t have the stomach for that post and comment thread, here’s the condensed and explained version of my comments there.

In response to this statement:

Also, no one, NO ONE has said here that God makes anyone do evil.

Adam Omelianchuk (comment 151) said:

How do you explain the Fall in light of your belief that God is absolutely sovereign over everything?

I responded:

Most calvinists would say that the fall was in God’s plans for his creation (that he decreed it), but it was accomplished in a way that preserved Adam and Eve’s freedom of choice (they did what they did voluntarily).

So God decreed the fall but didn’t directly cause—or make—anyone to sin.

And then in response to this comment by Jeff Doles (155):

It seems to me that there is a difference between God creating a world in which He allows evil to occur, and creating a world in order that evil may occur.

In philosophical terms, I would consider that God was the ultimate cause of evil in both cases. But in moral terms, I would consider Him the author of evil only in the latter case.

So, for example, if Adam was given the ability to choose other than to disobey God, and God did not impede in any way his ability to choose to obey God, then, while God would be the ultimate cause of evil, inasmuch as He created a situation in which evil was possible, He would not be the author of Adam’s sin.

OTOH, if God created Adam without the ability to choose the good, or in any way impeded Adam’s ability to obey Him, then He would be the author of Adam’s disobedience.

I wrote this:

I think most calvinists would agree that the fall happened as per your 3rd paragraph.

Which brought this (161):

Thanks for your response, Rebecca.

I believe God did give Adam the ability to choose other than to disobey, that is, the ability to obey, and did not impede that ability in any way.

If that is indeed the case, then it does not take anything away from the sovereignty of God. That is, He sovereignly chose to give Adam the ability to choose between obedience and disobedience. Or, to put it another way, He choose to limit Himself in a certain respect, but because it was His own divine choice, it did not violate His sovereignty.

Now, if Adam had the ability to choose obedience over disobedience, and was not somehow impeded by God in choosing the former nor somehow coerced by God to choose the latter — that is how I think of free will. Adam had the ability to choose other than He did. Though God commanded Adam to do one thing, and Adam was fully able to choose to obey, Adam actually chose to do the opposite. He resisted the command of God.

So, if God was able to give Adam the ability to choose freely, that is, to choose other than he actually did, and the command of God was not irresistible — then why should we think that God cannot enable people today, by His grace, with free will, that is, the ability choose to believe and obey the gospel or to actually choose otherwise and disobey the gospel. IOW, if the command of God, in Adam’s case, was not irresistible, though there was no impediment in Adam, then why should we suppose that the grace of God must be irresistible today?

And I responded this way:

That is, He sovereignly chose to give Adam the ability to choose between obedience and disobedience. Or, to put it another way, He choose to limit Himself in a certain respect, but because it was His own divine choice, it did not violate His sovereignty.

No, God didn’t limit himself. Things fell out exactly as he planned for them to fall out. He planned from before creation to redeem people in Christ Jesus (see Ephesians 1, for instance) and that requires a fall. He just accomplished the fall through Adam’s free choice.

Now, if Adam had the ability to choose obedience over disobedience, and was not somehow impeded by God in choosing the former nor somehow coerced by God to choose the latter — that is how I think of free will.

I think this is a correct statement of how things happened with Adam, but God’s plan for Adam’s fall was also in place and was being carried out when Adam fell.

He resisted the command of God.

Yes, but he didn’t resist God’s pre-creation plan for the fall to occur so that God could redeem people in Christ.

So, if God was able to give Adam the ability to choose freely, that is, to choose other than he actually did, and the command of God was not irresistible

The commands of God are not irresistible, as least according to the way I would define the word. God’s plans (or decrees), however, always do come to pass.

then why should we think that God cannot enable people today, by His grace, with free will, that is, the ability choose to believe and obey the gospel or to actually choose otherwise and disobey the gospel.

No one since the fall is in exactly the same position Adam was in. His pre-fall will was not yet corrupted as a consequence of the fall in the way that ours is.

IOW, if the command of God, in Adam’s case, was not irresistible, though there was no impediment in Adam, then why should we suppose that the grace of God must be irresistible today?

We have an impediment pre-fall Adam didn’t have. Our post-fall natures are corrupted so that we are obstinately and intransigently opposed to God. The only solution to our corrupt and intranigently obstinately opposed-to-God nature is re-creation. And that, by the way, is what calvinists mean when they use the term irresistible grace: God’s gracious re-creation of one’s corrupt nature.

Comments

[Jules @ Everyday Mommy]

Oooo...she's swimmin' in the deep end of the pool. I confess, Evangel scares me.

[Jules @ Everyday Mommy]

I went to the post and did a "Find" on the page. Your name appears four times. Frank Turk's name appears fifty times. Johnny Dialectic ten times. Steve Hays twenty-five times. Waaaa! Makes my head hurt ;)

[rebecca]

Yes, I just come in after the big guns have gone on to other things.

[Pam]

You go girl! You're a brave one tempting those waters ... but I would want you in the corner with me on behalf of Him. Well said ...